19. Antoni Cimolino on the Stratford Festival

The Stratford Festival, Ontario began in 1953. A newly-enhanced Tom Patterson Theatre has just opened, named after the festival’s founding-visionary. Paul speaks to the current artistic director, Antoni Cimolino, to find out more their vibrant work and aspirations.

Transcript

Paul Edmondson (00:00):

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Shakespeare Alive, a podcast of the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust. My name's Paul Edmondson. Shakespeare Alive hosts conversations with people who work with Shakespeare throughout the world. It's been my pleasure to know today's special guest for almost a decade. There are many Shakespeare festivals throughout the world, and indeed many in North America, but one of the earliest is the Stratford Festival in Ontario, Canada.

              Since it's founding visionary, Tom Patterson, first mentioned the idea for a festival during a talk at school, and later achieved the first season in 1953, the Stratford Festival has bodied forth the genius of Shakespeare across its stages with its own distinctive heartbeat. We're honored to be joined today by the festival's artistic director, Antoni Cimolino, member of the Order of Canada. He began his career as an actor at the festival in the late 1980s and started to direct in the mid 1990s. And it's been my joy and my delight to see several of his productions, the Merchant of Venice, Hamlet, King Lear, Mary Stuart, the School for Scandal, Antony and Cleopatra, Love's Labour's Lost.

              Along with his executive director, Anita Gaffney, he co-led a successful campaign for a $100 million new Tom Patterson Theatre. Its first season has just started with a play which opened that first festival season, Richard III. This season, he's directing the Richard III and The Miser by Molière. Antoni Cimolino, welcome indeed to Shakespeare Alive.

Antoni Cimolino (01:51):

Paul, how good to see you again. It's been too long.

Paul Edmondson (01:54):

What was your initial route into Shakespeare, Antoni?

Antoni Cimolino (01:58):

Well, I think like most people, I studied it in school. And as I began to become interested in theater, I found myself drawn towards it. It wasn't really till I came to the Stratford Festival though and saw an afternoon, a matinee, of Love's Labor's Lost, that really I just became so hooked and it changed my life. That afternoon, Paul, there were 2,000 people seated in that theater. And we have a Greek amphitheater around the stage. It was the first Guthrie thrust stage.

              And so, the sense of community is intensely strong in that situation. We were all laughing together. We were all moved by what we were seeing. And I was so blown away as a young person, as a person in my teens, at seeing really my friends on that stage, in a way. Those four young men and young women... There was the goofball, the glib one... And so, in that moment, I felt this connection to the past that somebody 400 years before had written down, things that were so central to my life in my existence. And then also, I felt a connection to humanity in that moment as well, because I was one of 2,000 people, who we were sharing a series of responses to what was happening on the stage. So there was something very powerful about that, that sense of connection to humanity. So I went home, and I told my dad that I wasn't going to go to law school. I was going to become an actor. Not the happiest day in our household, I can tell you that, but it proved to be seminal.

Paul Edmondson (03:41):

Well, I saw your own Love's Labor's Lost in that very space and what an astonishing space it is. I can compare it, as I imagine it, to the Chichester Festival Theatre, but it's a beautiful space for performance. And based on, as it were, the original Tanya Moiseiwitsch design, isn't it? Is it with the big top? Is that right? From 1953, the big marquee.

Antoni Cimolino (04:04):

Yeah, in that first year, we were under a tent. And Tanya and Guthrie went around the world, and Chichester is a sister theater that started 10 years after ours. We're in our 70th season. And of course, Chichester, this year, is experiencing their 60th season. And Tanya also had a voice, and was one of the individuals that was involved in the planning of the National Theatre, and the Olivier stage. And of course there's Sheffield in Minneapolis, and the Mark Taper Forum in LA, and the Vivian Beaumont in New York City. There's so many of these beautiful thrust spaces that were created by that duo.

Paul Edmondson (04:44):

I think when you went into that theater though, as a much younger Antoni, I think you knew already you were a performer, surely.

Antoni Cimolino (04:52):

Well, yeah, I guess that's right. I was involved in public speaking and debating, and yes, I was on stage. But I really thought I'd do something like become a lawyer, or politician, or something.

Paul Edmondson (05:05):

Intellectual fireworks, but they're so present in Love's Labour's Lost, aren't they?

Antoni Cimolino (05:08):

Yes.

Paul Edmondson (05:09):

It's an unusual play. It's easy to appreciate in performance. It's very difficult to read, Love's Labour's Lost. Isn't it? Perhaps the lawyer in you is also attracted to the intellectual fireworks and the words flying around.

Antoni Cimolino (05:21):

Well, so many plays are like that. I remember beginning rehearsals on Bartholomew Fair, and everybody was terrified of it because they had read it at home, alone. And then we got together, and we had a first read through, and people were rolling in the aisles. They were shocked to find it was actually played with such humor. And of course, Love's Labour's gives one all sorts of linguistic challenges, but also rewards one with such feeling and heart.

Paul Edmondson (05:54):

So, the illuminating moment when you went home and had that difficult conversation... How did that develop over time, your interest in knowing you wanted to go into the theater?

Antoni Cimolino (06:09):

Well, it was an interesting moment. My parents moved to Canada in late '40s. And while they were from Italy, and they did go back at one point to try to live in Italy again, but they had changed or Italy had changed. And they decided they wanted to stay in Canada. So as the child of an immigrant, success does not look like having your kid go into the theater. Success is a profession or a banker. And so, that moment for my dad... I remember him at the kitchen table just... Was trying to process what he was hearing. And he said, "[foreign language 00:06:47]."

              And it was not something that he had ever really thought about, even though my sister danced and toured with a company that went around the world, and I was involved in school plays and stuff. So at that moment, I guess I just felt that I wanted to do something with my life that would actually truly utilize the whole of me, and in a way, make a difference in the world. Now why, we in the theater feel that our going into the theater is going to make a difference in the world, I don't know, but I'd like to think that we're right.

Paul Edmondson (07:28):

And you went into the theater, first of all, as it were, treading the actual boards, didn't you?

Antoni Cimolino (07:33):

You mean as being an actor?

Paul Edmondson (07:34):

Exactly, yes.

Antoni Cimolino (07:35):

Yes, yes, yes. Well, I think there's great wisdom in that. Some people, especially in the UK, begin as directors. Others like Greg Doran and I, we began as actors. And there is something about actually understanding the craft from a very, very intimate way. Certainly everything from giving notes to actors and other artists through to just being able to block comes from a very visceral place because we've stood there and know how to move of things around because we've livid it

Paul Edmondson (08:15):

Out of interest, what was the time gap between your seeing Love's Labour's and then you stepping out onto that same space?

Antoni Cimolino (08:23):

Oh, that's a good question. I think about 10 years, 11 years. I would've never guessed that actually, at the time. But yeah, it was about... Maybe that, yeah.

Paul Edmondson (08:33):

So the start of your career as an actor was not at the festival, it was elsewhere. And then you came to the festival, is that right?

Antoni Cimolino (08:37):

Yes, I was in Toronto for a number of years performing at different theaters there, and then eventually found myself where I always wanted to be, at the Stratford Festival.

Paul Edmondson (08:47):

And you visited it and saw the productions there over that period, didn't you?

Antoni Cimolino (08:51):

Yes, that's right.

Paul Edmondson (08:53):

And then, something changed gear gradually over, I don't know, half a dozen years or so, and you started to direct.

Antoni Cimolino (09:02):

Okay, so we had a visit from Bill Gaskill. This was 1988, '89, and he was coming in to direct a Pirandello at the festival called Rules of the Game. And so, I was asked to assist him on that. Because having Italian as my first language, I could help in some ways. He and I got on well, and I worked with him. And I assisted him on that production the following season, and then eventually went and assisted him on A Comedy of Errors in New York City. But at that time, Paul, when all of my friends were getting really much better offers and parts, and I was being asked to be an assistant director, I took this as a bit of a slight towards my acting abilities. And maybe in fact that's the case, but it didn't feel like at that moment, although I had always wanted to direct... I worried that I would never be an actor again.

Paul Edmondson (10:00):

And then we fast forward a few more years, 15 years or so perhaps, and you became Artistic Director of the Stratford Festival. What does that mean to you?

Antoni Cimolino (10:11):

Well, being an artistic director of an institution, especially ones that are important to the development of the community, and have training programs, and educational programs, there's a real responsibility to the future. You are not only trying to create theater that is compelling and exciting in any given season. You're also trying to build towards something down the line, a world that is somewhere on that horizon. And with the development, Canada especially is a young country, and it's a country that is changing in terms of its composition. And when the Stratford Festival started in 1953, it was very, very Anglo-Saxon and white. We are now in a situation where we have a glorious mix of people from around the world who've moved to Canada, and it's a very, very exciting place. Unlike some countries in Europe where they feel like, "Well, we know what our culture is, and we don't want it to change." Culture and the definition of what it means to be Canadian is evolving and gloriously so. Looking at the stories we tell and a wider range of stories, looking at how we train people, and develop talent...

              Opening that up, so it's a little bit less hierarchical than what we've done in the past and it's more of an open weave. For instance, I've just finished a rehearsal process on Richard II. And Paul, it was really, probably the best experience I've ever had. We began, we put into place a series of days called pre-rehearsal orientations or pro-days. Three days, where we as a company, just get to meet, and talk to each other, get to understand each other, know each other a bit before we begin work. And that, the intention there, is to empower especially the younger, newer members of the company so that they can have their voices be heard. And the contributions they were making were phenomenal. Suddenly, we had a room where people were all contributing towards a storytelling. I'd always aspired to have that kind of room. I always valued it. I don't think I was really putting that into place in a way that is the case now. And this speaks to the future, the kind of festival we want to be in the years ahead.

Anjna Chouhan  (12:24):

We really appreciate your support for Shakespeare Alive, and we'd love to hear from you about how you're enjoying our podcast. So please complete our survey by visiting shakespeare.org.uk/future. You can also leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or on your usual podcast platform. Why not join the conversation on social media by using #shakespearealive, and we hope that you enjoy the rest of this episode.

Paul Edmondson (12:56):

Well, one adjective which pops into my head in relation to your wonderful festival, and I've visited it many times over the last decade, is loyalty. And I mean that in multiple directions. I mean it from the people of Stratford in the earliest days, being loyal to the fundraising for Tom Patterson's vision, Let's Get This Thing Started. I remember stories about when the milkman used to go and collect their monies asking, "Would you like to donate to the festival?" And people putting in a bit extra. The people of Stratford knew they were going to benefit economically from this, but the loyalty was there from the start it seems to me.

              I also mean loyalty when I open a Stratford program and I read that it's an actor's 33rd season with the festival, or 12th season, or 40th season. And nowhere else in the world do I open a program and read that. It's astonishing. It's humbling. It's beautiful. It's loyalty. Could you say something about that? Because what you've just described about the rehearsal room and wanting to build a community, some people would call that an ensemble from day one. Let's build an ensemble. Let's build an atmosphere in which people can trust each other and know how they work and know enough about each other's personalities to realize when something's going to be humorous and so on. But the loyalty's there. And I wonder if you've seen something along the lines of the more established actors, who are there for their 25th season, for example, wanting that to be given somehow to someone who's first season it is.

Antoni Cimolino (14:34):

Absolutely. We have over 130 actors in our ensemble this year, and that's not for six weeks or eight weeks. These are contracts that span nine months. And so, because we've got actors who are eight-years-old, and we have actors who are 80-years-old on that 130, and they're getting to spend months together in different plays because we are still in rep. There's an opportunity. There's an opportunity for exchange. There's an opportunity for mentorship. There's also an opportunity for the older members of the company to learn a lot from the newer ones, new mindsets, new ways of viewing things. I think that's an enormous strength.

Paul Edmondson (15:13):

There's also the loyalty of your audiences. And one of the great successes, and one of the things I've noticed palpably every time I've been, is there's plenty to do around the productions when you're not actually sitting in the theater. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about some of the ways in which the festival interacts with its audiences? As it were outside your four differently shaped auditoria, which you might come onto in a moment.

Antoni Cimolino (15:39):

Well, we have something called the Meighen Forum, and the forum is a series of events, 150 or so, that range from comedy nights, to musical presentations, to panel discussions. We're doing Death and the King's Horseman this year, and we have Professor Wole Soyinka, the Nobel prize winner, coming, and speaking, and seeing the production. We have Salman Rushdie giving a talk as well. Adam Gopnik from The New Yorker... Just a wide range of extraordinary people. And the purpose of this, Paul, and you and Stanley Wells, God, love him. He's fantastic, as you are. You have been guests. And the purpose of this program is to help us better understand or appreciate the role of these plays, these old plays, as well as the new plays, in our world today. We have people who come from all over the world, mostly though, the United States and Canada, and usually within a drive of about nine hours.

              Although, we have people coming from every state in the United States and every country in Europe. When they get together, they're actually unplugged from the madness of London or New York. We had a former Artistic Director, Richard Menard, who said that when you're in a theater in New York, it's very hard to be... For anything in that theater, to be more dramatic than what you've stepped over on the sidewalk. The sirens are wailing, and then you go in for drama. Whereas, the great thing about both Stratfords is that you can share an experience that is decompressed. That you can share that experience with people you love or friends. And that it enters your soul in a deeper way than if you're just rushing out after work, and having dinner, and then rushing home. There's something about this, which is... If we can plan for it, and that's a challenge. But I think for young people, for students, for audience members who are able to get the Stratford, it's potentially, like for me, a life-changing experience.

Paul Edmondson (17:53):

The forum was your own innovation, Antoni, and what a great success it's been. One of the things also though is, to use that word loyalty again, of the Town of Stratford. I've noticed how a lot of your education work and your public events around these productions, including the forum, take place in different venues across the town. And there's a sense of the town's loyalty through, as it were being used as the campus, for the festival, which I've always liked and admired.

Antoni Cimolino (18:25):

Yes, the community, Paul, in 1953, there were those who were for the theater getting established and those that were against. Some were terrified of, what would happen to the community with all these actor types came into town? And somehow, we've survived. And yes, there is a real affection, and many people moved to Stratford. It's a city of about 33,000 or so people. The festival was created from this community. They're the ones who did it. In a way, it is their greatest, I believe, artistic expression, that they created that theater, which has four different venues.

Paul Edmondson (19:02):

Differently shaped, that's key, isn't it? Differently shaped auditoria.

Antoni Cimolino (19:05):

Yes.

Paul Edmondson (19:06):

I can be in a proscenium arch. I can be in the amphitheater. I can be in a black box. I can be in a thrust stage auditorium.

Antoni Cimolino (19:14):

And different, like the Tom Patterson is an elongated thrust, so it's quite long. And also, wow, the acoustics that we were able to put into that... The ambient sound in the room is around 12 decibels. If it gets in quieter, it feels a bit like a tomb. So it envelopes the actors. And we've only opened this theater within the last number of weeks, but the ability for an actor to simply be intimate and at one with the audience is really so encouraging.

Paul Edmondson (19:48):

I'm so thrilled for you, because I've enjoyed many performances in the Tom Paterson Theater in its previous iteration. Can you give us an example of the quality of sound? Perhaps from Richard III, which has just opened.

Antoni Cimolino (20:05):

The building is beautiful in every way. It's along the water, and it has modernist design, but it's a very soft modernism. The walls undulate like natural materials, like leaves or branches in a stream. And if you can get online, have a look at it. It's really striking. There are public spaces in there, of course, but it's the auditorium that really has my heart. In the beautiful speech that Richard gives after the nightmare sequence in which he says, "No creature loves me." Colm Feore, who's playing Richard, can just sit on that stage, having come out of his tent terrified, and just speak so, so quietly, and intimately, and with such nuance. He's an extraordinary actor, but he also is able, in that situation, to play on a Stradivarius. That deck, it's just...

              And a lot of care went into this, of course, right from the materials on the wood of the stage, through to every reflective and absorbent surface, to the air handling. Because thrust spaces are actually quite hard to do. In a proscenium arch, you can create an atmosphere and a sound level behind the box that is the stage and another one for the audience. When you're all seated together in one room, you're pouring cold air or hot, and the noise that is attendant on it, all on everybody together. And so, making sure that the actors stay cool while the audiences aren't frozen, making sure that the sound level is... Every particle of air in that auditorium, Paul, is replaced every 15 minutes. I didn't want to create in this a very movable space, although it can go into the round from one season to the next. What I wanted was to create a space that had a point of view and that it could support both classical and new work.

Paul Edmondson (22:01):

Well, I wonder, looking back, because you've almost completed your first decade as artistic director. What are some of your abiding memories? What are you most proud of, or what makes you smile, or makes you blush?

Antoni Cimolino (22:16):

Over the years, we've introduced the filming of productions. And so, we have a library of majority of Shakespeare's plays done by this company. And that continues to expand. We'll be filming six productions this year. The first form events... We had a general who took part of the Good Friday Accords. He was there with Senator Mitchell as they tried to get the militias to give up their guns. He was a Canadian general. And he talked about Romeo and Juliet, and his experience of being in Northern Ireland, and the experience of Shakespeare's play, and how true the division in that community is in Shakespeare's play and from his experience in Northern Ireland. The opening of the Tom Patterson absolutely was gorgeous, new $75 million theater.

Paul Edmondson (23:03):

So can you tell us a bit about the opening event itself?

Antoni Cimolino (23:07):

Well, we were outside the theater. We had a ribbon cutting. And the four young people from Richard III, the four... Kids, we had four, because we had two and two. They trade off playing the princes. And they were there cutting the ribbon. And we had one of the people who was in the 1953 production, and played Clarence's son, was there with them. So we had a young actor from 1953 with the young actors from [inaudible 00:23:36]-

Paul Edmondson (23:36):

How wonderful. That's wondrous. That's just the kind of thing that matters to the Stratford Festival, and to its audiences, and to its wider communities. The fact that the thought and the imagination is there, with that big heart beating. Just like 1953. Pull it into the present. The vision is still alive and kicking. These things really matter, and I think it's just wonderful to hear that. Thank you.

Antoni Cimolino (24:02):

And in that special day, we had a series of jets fly overhead to commemorate it. And on the opening night of Richard, we had a drone show. Have you ever seen a drone show? About 100 drones, small ones with lights attached that could change, were in the sky. And so on opening night, instead of fireworks, we had these 100... And they're all computer programmed. They would make the face of William Shakespeare, and then all sorts... I know it sounds-

Paul Edmondson (24:33):

Like synchronized swimmers.

Antoni Cimolino (24:33):

It was magical.

Paul Edmondson (24:34):

Like synchronized swimmers.

Antoni Cimolino (24:35):

Yes, or all the Tinker Bells that you can imagine up in the sky. And it was like a swarm of birds. What is that called? When you see a whole bunch of birds making different shapes.

Paul Edmondson (24:49):

Oh, I see. We can say murmuration of starlings because they different shapes, don't they?

Antoni Cimolino (24:53):

That's right. But in this case it was... So I'm thinking now, they can do such amazing things with them, Paul, we need to get them into a theater.

Paul Edmondson (25:01):

Oh, yes. Yes. We can all look up or be astonished with these drone formations. You mentioned the filming of some of the productions. It's been my pleasure to see some of those, and beautifully filmed. And they're all out there online, accessible for people, are they? Or we can purchase them?

Antoni Cimolino (25:18):

Yes, you can. We actually have a subscription service, STRATFEST@HOME. So, STRATFEST@HOME. And you can subscribe on a monthly basis, or you can see specific productions. And everything's available there, the entire library, as well as we also have filmed other events, other forum events, talks, as well as performances. And we've also been hosting material from other theaters there, a portal or a gateway for Canadian theater to the world.

Paul Edmondson (25:50):

That sounds very exciting. It's a great way of people becoming acquainted with the festival's work, if they're not already acquainted with it. So aside from, as it were, films of theater productions, do you watch Shakespeare-related films or movies yourself? And do you actually have a favorite of those?

Antoni Cimolino (26:10):

Okay, I have to confess that for somebody who started to film series, I was never a fan of Shakespeare on film. Although, there's some very good ones. The Kenneth Branagh ones especially are terrific, Henry V. The Much Ado is wonderful. I have to say, and I say this with affection, not to be self-serving... My favorite film is the one of The Tempest, was my production. That's not the reason I'm mentioning it. It's because the Prospero was an extraordinary actress who passed away this past year, Martha Henry.

Paul Edmondson (26:39):

Martha Henry, yeah.

Antoni Cimolino (26:40):

Oh... What a loss. Paul, she did Three Tall Women indoors last year, and she was terminally ill at the time. It was an extraordinary performance. She passed away within days of closing it. She just wanted to get through. She had been with the festival since 1962. She was a great friend and an extraordinary artist. And to see her again in that film of The Tempest, just... It means the world to me. So that will always be, I think, my favorite film.

Paul Edmondson (27:15):

I have not seen that film, and I shall make a point of seeing it. Antoni, thank you. That's a really wonderful recommendation. I've seen some of her work in the festival, and I'd like to see her Prospero. Just to end with, if you were imagining... And you've been many times to the other Stratford, Stratford-upon-Avon. I call you the other Stratford. You think of us as the other Stratford.

Antoni Cimolino (27:39):

There's more than one!

Paul Edmondson (27:40):

There's more than one, but we're each other's other Stratford. If you could deposit anything, and you've got a very substantial, impressive archive there. I've been to it, of the festival's distinguished history. If you could deposit something in the archive of Stratford-upon-Avon, and by which we mean the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust, its library, its archives, its museum collections... Anything you like. Put down marker, as it were, in the Stratford-upon-Avon arc, what would you deposit and why?

Antoni Cimolino (28:10):

There's a letter that was written in 1952 from Tyrone Guthrie to Alec Guinness, who was the first Richard [inaudible 00:28:16]... And he was explaining the venture that he wanted to embark on, why it mattered to create this open stage, the stage which had never existed since Shakespeare's time. He wanted to create this thrust stage that would support the words of Shakespeare, to allow the effects and the images that Shakespeare has in his writing to exist without competition from scenic design. To just be able to put the actor and the text in the heart of the audience. And it's such a beautiful letter, Paul, because...

              Some people may think this was the supreme, colonialist gesture, for somebody from the UK to open up a Shakespeare theater in Canada, but the spirit of it. Where he says, "We must make this a absolutely Canadian venture." And he explains Guinness what... And it is so much in the spirit of sharing. Guthrie was obvious extraordinary man, but the generosity, the kindness, the desire to give a gift that is so strong in that letter. I would say... Now the problem is, I would never part, we would never part with that letter, but we would give a very high-quality copy, which we would love to share with our sister institution at the Birthplace Trust.

Paul Edmondson (29:37):

Thank you, and we'd find an appropriate way of reciprocating with such an appropriate image as well, from our collection. I don't doubt it. Anthoni Cimolino, this has been a delight, and I could happily talk to you many hours about the Stratford Festival. I feel like our conversation is ongoing over the years I've known you and long may it continue. It's been great being able to host this podcast with you in the other Stratford, from my home in Stratford-upon-Avon. You're in your home there in Stratford, Ontario. And we wish you well with this season, the Richard III. When does The Miser open?

Antoni Cimolino (30:14):

It opens in August, towards the end of August, and it goes until November.

Paul Edmondson (30:19):

And you've also got All's Well opening, which again, was one of the two plays that opened in 1953.

Antoni Cimolino (30:24):

And a beautiful production of Hamlet, which was the play that played in the first festival theater season. Sorry. So when we built the festival theater in 1957, Chris Plummer played Hamlet. And so, it is a season built around the idea of new beginnings.

Paul Edmondson (30:39):

Wow, this is great. We hope that's a great season for you, that 2022 is a landmark year with a new theater and new beginnings. Antoni Cimolino, thank you very much indeed.

Anjna Chouhan (30:51):

Thank you for listening to this episode of Shakespeare Alive with Paul. Join me next week when I speak to hosts, the popular, Not Another Shakespeare Podcast, James and Nora. If you'd like to find out more about the houses, collections, research, and education activity at the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust, then please head over to our website, shakespeare.org.uk.